One and Done……….

I was reading a post over at  http://fidedubitandum.wordpress.com/2014/02/27/the-blame-game/#comments and couldn’t help but comment.  They either become dismissive of your comments or they cry foul because you are referring to events in the distant past.  Using their logic, why would we want to believe anything written so long ago ?   It begins with my challenge to the host’s ( Debilis ) post.

11 responses to “The Blame Game”

  • kcchief1
    February 27th, 2014 at 11:26 pm

    “Once we get out of the Crusades, however, it becomes clear that war (and, really, all human killing of one another) is almost always over land, money, and power. Religion definitely takes a back seat.”

    And why do you think the Israelites where involved in so many wars and killing entire villages, men, women and children ? Yes it was over land. The land their God supposedly gave to them and told them to kill the inhabitents.

    Did religion take a back seat to this ???

    • Debilis
      February 27th, 2014 at 11:39 pm

      I suppose I could get into all the issues surrounding that, but it seems rather beside the point.

      This definitely isn’t a good defense of the NewAtheist position-if that was what it was meant to be.

      But perhaps it is simply a rhetorical jab that wasn’t really trying to make a case about the most common causes of war?

      Either way, I don’t see how my position should change as a result of this comment.

    • pancakesandwildhoney
      February 27th, 2014 at 11:59 pm

      Yes it did. Think about it. What was the early OT?

  • kcchief1
    February 28th, 2014 at 12:04 am

    “I suppose I could get into all the issues surrounding that, but it seems rather beside the point.”

    First of all , I am not an Atheist. Secondly it is NOT beside the point. That’s a cop out on your part.

    Tell me where I am wrong in the statements I made previously. It matters not what the score is concerning deaths by religion vs deaths by other causes. Any deaths caused by religion is wrong.

  • dpatrickcollins
    February 28th, 2014 at 2:35 am

    Any deaths caused by religion is wrong.

    Notwithstanding the fact that critics of Christianity must reach back thousands of years to attempt to build the case it is at its core a violent religion (and in the process ignore a great part of and central revelation of scripture), I am curious to know whether you think any deaths caused by any ideology is wrong.

  • kcchief1
    February 28th, 2014 at 7:49 am

    “Notwithstanding the fact that critics of Christianity must reach back thousands of years to attempt to build the case”

    That’s a pretty silly statement since the history of Christianity spans over 2,000 years and further when you go back through Judaism.

    Debilis is the one who said, “So the topic this time: If you’re claiming that religion is the cause of nearly all the wars and conflict in history, ”

    I think the word “history” allows me to go back as far as I want to. Did you even read his post before you commented ???

    Debilis provides no evidence that Atheists think that all wars were overwhelmingly caused by religion. It may be true but he provides no source material.

    I’m not an atheist. I just don’t like to see Christians throwing inflammatory statements out there and expecting everyone to accept them as fact. When I confronted him with the history of the israelites, he dodged the question because he knew he couldn’t defend it.

    And then you jump in and cry foul because I went back to far . Really ?

  • kcchief1
    February 28th, 2014 at 7:56 am

    Oh and by the way, to answer your question, YES I think it’s wrong when any ideology causes death. “Defending” is a topic for another discussion . “Causing” is the topic of this discussion.

    “Notwithstanding the fact that critics of Christianity must reach back thousands of years to attempt to build the case it is at its core a violent religion (and in the process ignore a great part of and central revelation of scripture)”

    I didn’t see where you denied at it’s core religion is violent, you just claimed I was ignoring a great part and central revelation of scripture. Again the part you claimed I ignore is not part of the discussion.

    Is this your belief ?

  • kcchief1
    February 28th, 2014 at 11:27 am

    You need to come to Springfield, IL (where I live) to the Abraham Lincoln Presidential Museum to see how religion “played a major role” in the Civil War.

    Harry S. Stout
    Professor of History, Religious Studies, and American Studies
    Jonathan Edwards Professor of American Christianity, Yale Divinity School
    ©National Humanities Center says this:

    “It’s abundantly clear, as recent scholarship has demonstrated that religion stood at the center of the Civil War for both sides. Both North and South looked to God for meaning, and each side believed—with equal fervor and certitude—that God was on its side. Many ministers, generals, leaders, and editors went so far as to proclaim that God had ordained the war and would determine its length, its damages, and its outcome. The victor would show, in other words, whose side God really supported. New England political and religious leaders had long proclaimed themselves God’s “chosen people.” With the start of the Civil War, southerners laid claim to the title and, through speech, print, and ritual actions, proceeded to “prove” their claim.

    Original Handwritten Document For the South, this “chosen” status not only presumed ultimate victory in what would turn out to be a long and bloody conflict, but also put God’s imprimatur on the Confederate national identity. In fact, the South claimed to be a uniquely Christian nation. The new Confederate Constitution, adopted on February 8, 1861, and ratified on March 11, 1861, officially declared its Christian identity, “invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God.” Southern leaders chose as their national motto Deo Vindice (“God will avenge”). Confederate President Jefferson Davis proclaimed that the time had come “to recognize our dependence upon God … [and] supplicate his merciful protection.” This national acknowledgment of religious dependence, as the South frequently pointed out during the war in both the religious and the secular press, stood in stark contrast to the “godless” government of the North that ignored God in its constitution and put secular concerns above the sacred duties of Christian service and the divine commission.”

  • kcchief1
    February 28th, 2014 at 3:00 pm

    @dpatrickcollins, this example is only 150 years old. Is this recent enough for you ?

  • Frank Morris
    February 28th, 2014 at 6:17 pm

    kcchiefs, are you seriously claiming that the Civil War was fought over God? The Civil War was mostly about slavery and abolition, with other cultural and economic concerns as well.

    I think debilis’ point is solid when he says that there is a difference between what national leaders SAY is their goal and what really IS the cause of the war. Leaders of warring nations will always put a positive spin on their motives. They are fighting for “freedom” or “democracy”, “national security”, “to prevent oppression” or even for “peace”.

    Does that mean that freedom, security and peace are horrible and that oppression is great?

    Doesn’t Christianity promote “turn the other cheek”? Even if not all Christians in history achieve that ideal, isn’t it still a worthy goal?

    The Crusades were religion oriented, but that was not exactly by people who were following the ideals of the religion they falsely claim. And we are talking about more than a millennium ago.

    Last century was the bloodiest in history, thanks to atheists Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin.

    Not only is religion standing in opposition to war, and in support of peace, forgiveness and brotherhood, but religions are also there to provide humanitarian assistance in catastrophes such as war, famine, disease or severe weather disasters.

  • kcchief1
    February 28th, 2014 at 7:16 pm

    Frank Morris, I provided commentary from scholars on the Civil War. You can and will draw your own conclusions.

    You can also keep “drinking the Koolaid”

    You all keep crying foul when I bring up evidence in that it is too old. Don’t you understand History has no time constraints ? Because you can’t defend what the Israelites did or what the Church did during the Crusades, you want to remove them as evidence because they happened too long ago !

    Hogwash !

    This is what people in the Middle East are now saying about the Holocaust . It happened too long ago and therefore there is no credible evidence to support it ever happened !

    Where is the turning of the other cheek in this recent development ?

    http://nypost.com/2013/12/09/christian-mobs-attack-muslims-in-central-african-republic/

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8 thoughts on “One and Done……….

  1. Ken, Debilis runs a strange circus which belies logic and rationality. But you already know this

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    • I think most of the apologists we come in contact with are this way. This is why the concentration has to be directed towards the youth before they become indoctrinated.

      It is quite comical and yet sad however to watch these mostly educated people check their reasoning at the door before entering these blogs.. AND I used to be one of them along with my new friend and fellow blogger http://brucegerencser.net/ who also commented on this post.

      There is hope for some of the adults . 🙂

      Like

  2. Well I am just a garden variety atheist, but one has to have blinders on to not see the prominence of religion in war. Yes, wars are fought over land and resources. Yes, wars are fought for nationalistic and ethnic reasons. Men want power and once they have power they want to keep it. Religion plays a central part in all of this. Even in our present American wars, it is thought that we are fighting them for religious reasons. (This may be a case of perception rather than reality, but I suspect many Muslims think it is Christian America warring against them) and who can forget George W Bush framing the wars as rightous, battle of Good vs Evil, etc. He explicitly used religious language when talking about the wars.

    Now if someone is saying that religion is the primary reason for war, then I disagree with that. I think war is complex, but religion is certainly part of the equation.

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  3. Exactly Bruce ! I wasn’t trying to say that wars are caused solely from Religion. I was trying to point out how religion can contribute heavily in the argument for and justification of war.

    The people who commented didn’t even want to recognize religion had anything to do with it.

    Thanks for your comments !

    Like

  4. These people are dickheads. And I am being polite. The religious cite politics as the main reason for war but it is they that have the agenda and their disingenuous nature and blatant ignorance is evident.
    While the two main protagonists, Christianity and Islam maintain a proselytizing stance to their faith , clashes are inevitable.
    And the underlying reason for the Middle East conflicts stem right back to the bible.
    And if you cite the Canaanite genocide up pops the Divine Command theory.

    They love to play this no religious war card but fail to acknowledge the violence perpetrated in the name of religion. Look at Islam .
    Go and read what’s recently been posted on Unklee’s blog.

    Like

    • I’ve always admired your politeness. 🙂 When people turn to evil it is amazing how quick the “crispians” label them “atheists” . Hitler as an example. He from time to time denounced Christianity, but I’m not sure if he ever considered himself an atheist. I have a belt buckle which actually belonged to a German soldier in WW II. It says “Gott Mit Uns” translated, “God with Us” These were issued to ALL German soldiers in WW II.

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      • Yes. It is utterly nonsensical to claim Hitler was an atheist. You should in fact do a post about the belt buckle, Ken. In fact I am surprised this hasn’t been brought up more often.

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  5. Thanks for the suggestion Ark. I think I will . I’m packing now for my trip but I might write it while enjoying some good weather for a change in Maui. We are suppose to get freezing rain again here this afternoon followed by 2 – 4 inches of snow . Then tomorrow another 1 – 3 inches. It will be so nice to see palm trees in a few days ! 🙂

    Like

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